BLITZER: Brian Todd, thanks very much for that report. Samuel Berger is represented by another White House veteran. Lanny Breuer was a special counsel to President Clinton in the White House, a one- time federal prosecutor. He is now a prominent defense attorney specializing in white-collar cases. Lanny Breuer joining us now live.
Lanny, thanks very much for joining us. This goes back to the fall when these allegations were made, right?
LANNY BREUER, BERGER'S ATTORNEY: That's exactly right, Wolf. This matter is now over a year old. Sandy Berger reviewed documents in the Archives in July and September and October of 2003. And from October 2003, the first time that Sandy was notified that this one document was missing, we've been 100 percent open, returned the two documents that were in Sandy's possession immediately and have tried to have a very open and informed discussion with the Department of Justice.
BLITZER: But Sandy Berger knew the rules when he went there. He's not just anyone. He's not an academic. He's a former national security adviser. A, he knew you don't take documents out of the National Archives, and, B, he knew if you took notes you have to get clearance to get permission to remove those notes from those rooms.
BREUER: Well, see -- let's first talk, Wolf, about the notes. The notes have just never been an issue in this case. The Department of Justice has told me those notes have not been an issue in this case. He took notes and the reason he took notes was Sandy had read and reviewed thousands upon thousands of documents. I'm not sure there's another American of Sandy's stature who spent more time selflessly reviewing documents so that he could answer all of the questions of the 9/11 commission.
BLITZER: Let's talk about those notes for a second. Did he take notes -- did he take those notes from the room without authorization?
BREUER: He took notes and he did take them out. It's a violation of the Archives procedure. He took those notes. From the very beginning, he openly took the notes. He was allowed to take notes. And then he took the notes with him. He put them in his coat pocket and in his pants pocket...
BLITZER: He knew this was not authorized.
BREUER: Well, he knew it was a violation of Archives procedure. It's not against the law. No one has suggested to him it's against the law. The Department of Justice has not been concerned with it. And indeed, Wolf, in October, when the Archives contacted him, Sandy Berger returned those notes even though he wasn't asked for those notes.
BLITZER: I know Sandy Berger. You know Sandy Berger. Why would he violate Archives procedure?
BREUER: Because there's something more important than Archives procedure and that's the hard work of the 9/11 commission. Sandy Berger knew that he was going to be asked questions about what happened in the early '90s and mid '90s and that the 9/11 commission and the families of those victims had a right to know what happened.
BLITZER: Why didn't he ask for authorization, for permission? They would have given him permission to take that out of there.
BREUER: Wolf, we've admitted and Sandy has acknowledged from the beginning it was a mistake of judgment. There is no surprise here. We've acknowledged that mistake in judgment in October. And everyone... BLITZER: Did he panic? Is that it?
BREUER: It wasn't panic at all. It wasn't considered to him that big a deal to take the notes. Clearly, the Department of Justice, in every discussion they've had with me, have made it clear that that was not a focus of this matter.
And you know why he did it? So that he could fully answer the questions of the commission and better students of foreign policy than me have uniformly said that Berger's answers were thoughtful and complete and very much (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this hard work and it was those notes that helped him do it.
BLITZER: All right. The notes are one thing. Much more serious is the classified document. This is a highly sensitive document. I don't know what -- if it's code word or top secret or a compartmental, secure -- whatever the classification is, he knew he should not take that document out of that room.
BREUER: Well, let's talk about that document. That's a document that Dick Clarke authored because Sandy Berger asked him to do it.
BLITZER: Dick Clarke was the White House counterterrorism czar, if you will.
BREUER: Exactly. And at the time of the millennium in 2000, if you remember, there were lots of threats about terrorism. And the White House and the United States addressed those concerns. And most people look at the time of January 1, 2000 as a time that we can be proud of. We thwarted terrorist cells. Berger was the national security adviser and he was very proud of what they did. But he didn't just rest on his laurels. He said to Clarke, "I want you to take a hard look. Tell us what we did right and tell us what we didn't do right." And to Clarke's credit, he did it. To Berger's credit he asked him to do it.
Now with respect to what this document is about, it is widely known. Its existence is widely known. It's written about in books and in magazines.
BLITZER: So why did he have to take it out of that room?
BREUER: That he did it inadvertently.
BLITZER: What is inadvertently?
BREUER: Let me tell you what happened.
BLITZER: Sandy Berger doesn't do things inadvertently.
BREUER: Well, wait a minute. Sandy Berger had been reviewing thousands and thousands of pages of classified documents. He did it so that he could give informed answers to the 9/11 commission. And so the very documents that have formed the basis of their report could be produced. He did that by himself because no one else could do it or would do it. So he has a table. He's working openly. There are Archives people there and there are thousands of documents. And in the course of his review it was clear to everyone he had a leather portfolio. He brought it in openly. The Archives people knew it. And anyone who has works with Sandy knows he always has that leather portfolio and there were lots of business papers that have nothing at all to do with this commission.
And perhaps, Wolf, there was too much informality by Sandy and maybe too much informality by the Archives people. But at some point when he leaves, the memorandum got caught with his business papers and he walked out. It was inadvertent. He admitted the mistake...
BLITZER: Was that document -- that sensitive classified document was in his little briefcase?
BREUER: It wasn't a briefcase. It was a leather portfolio. And to highlight it, all of the documents that he was reviewing on those three days were highly classified. This was a longer document. He had put it aside to look at it more. But it's unfair to suggest that that document was more classified or sensitive than all of the other things he saw.
BLITZER: You know that eyewitnesses, staffers at the National Archives say they saw him stuffing documents in his jacket, in his pants. And one even said he saw Sandy Berger put something in his socks.
BREUER: And you know that's categorically false and ridiculous. Wolf, I have now represented Sandy in this matter since October. Since that time I've tried to have responsible discussions with the government. And I said I didn't want it to be vetted in the press, I didn't want this to be political.
We wanted to treat this as a serious matter. Not once in all the time I've represented Sandy has that allegation been made. But suddenly today or yesterday right at the eve of the 9/11 commission report suddenly these ridiculous allegations are being made. It's false and it didn't happen.
BLITZER: Where is -- where does the criminal probe right now stand? You've been informed that your client, Samuel Berger, is under criminal investigation.
BREUER: I've been told since October that he was no more than a subject of this investigation. I was told to draw absolutely no negative inferences whatsoever from the fact that this investigation had been going on. I've been told by the Department of Justice that they couldn't be more pleased with the manner in which Sandy Berger and I have been handling this and have been cooperative. And I've been told that the Department of Justice had wanted to get this resolved.
The only thing that I had asked was that this not become a partisan affair and that people who didn't understand the facts would start making assertions. And, Wolf, that's exactly what happened this week when someone in the administration, some law enforcement person decided it was time to leak the document and treat this investigation not seriously.
BLITZER: But you understand why people are skeptical of this story given the fact that this document that's missing was very critical presumably of the Clinton administration. It's a very sensitive document and that people saw him doing suspicious things in there.
Lanny, thanks very much for joining us. This goes back to the fall when these allegations were made, right?
LANNY BREUER, BERGER'S ATTORNEY: That's exactly right, Wolf. This matter is now over a year old. Sandy Berger reviewed documents in the Archives in July and September and October of 2003. And from October 2003, the first time that Sandy was notified that this one document was missing, we've been 100 percent open, returned the two documents that were in Sandy's possession immediately and have tried to have a very open and informed discussion with the Department of Justice.
BLITZER: But Sandy Berger knew the rules when he went there. He's not just anyone. He's not an academic. He's a former national security adviser. A, he knew you don't take documents out of the National Archives, and, B, he knew if you took notes you have to get clearance to get permission to remove those notes from those rooms.
BREUER: Well, see -- let's first talk, Wolf, about the notes. The notes have just never been an issue in this case. The Department of Justice has told me those notes have not been an issue in this case. He took notes and the reason he took notes was Sandy had read and reviewed thousands upon thousands of documents. I'm not sure there's another American of Sandy's stature who spent more time selflessly reviewing documents so that he could answer all of the questions of the 9/11 commission.
BLITZER: Let's talk about those notes for a second. Did he take notes -- did he take those notes from the room without authorization?
BREUER: He took notes and he did take them out. It's a violation of the Archives procedure. He took those notes. From the very beginning, he openly took the notes. He was allowed to take notes. And then he took the notes with him. He put them in his coat pocket and in his pants pocket...
BLITZER: He knew this was not authorized.
BREUER: Well, he knew it was a violation of Archives procedure. It's not against the law. No one has suggested to him it's against the law. The Department of Justice has not been concerned with it. And indeed, Wolf, in October, when the Archives contacted him, Sandy Berger returned those notes even though he wasn't asked for those notes.
BLITZER: I know Sandy Berger. You know Sandy Berger. Why would he violate Archives procedure?
BREUER: Because there's something more important than Archives procedure and that's the hard work of the 9/11 commission. Sandy Berger knew that he was going to be asked questions about what happened in the early '90s and mid '90s and that the 9/11 commission and the families of those victims had a right to know what happened.
BLITZER: Why didn't he ask for authorization, for permission? They would have given him permission to take that out of there.
BREUER: Wolf, we've admitted and Sandy has acknowledged from the beginning it was a mistake of judgment. There is no surprise here. We've acknowledged that mistake in judgment in October. And everyone... BLITZER: Did he panic? Is that it?
BREUER: It wasn't panic at all. It wasn't considered to him that big a deal to take the notes. Clearly, the Department of Justice, in every discussion they've had with me, have made it clear that that was not a focus of this matter.
And you know why he did it? So that he could fully answer the questions of the commission and better students of foreign policy than me have uniformly said that Berger's answers were thoughtful and complete and very much (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this hard work and it was those notes that helped him do it.
BLITZER: All right. The notes are one thing. Much more serious is the classified document. This is a highly sensitive document. I don't know what -- if it's code word or top secret or a compartmental, secure -- whatever the classification is, he knew he should not take that document out of that room.
BREUER: Well, let's talk about that document. That's a document that Dick Clarke authored because Sandy Berger asked him to do it.
BLITZER: Dick Clarke was the White House counterterrorism czar, if you will.
BREUER: Exactly. And at the time of the millennium in 2000, if you remember, there were lots of threats about terrorism. And the White House and the United States addressed those concerns. And most people look at the time of January 1, 2000 as a time that we can be proud of. We thwarted terrorist cells. Berger was the national security adviser and he was very proud of what they did. But he didn't just rest on his laurels. He said to Clarke, "I want you to take a hard look. Tell us what we did right and tell us what we didn't do right." And to Clarke's credit, he did it. To Berger's credit he asked him to do it.
Now with respect to what this document is about, it is widely known. Its existence is widely known. It's written about in books and in magazines.
BLITZER: So why did he have to take it out of that room?
BREUER: That he did it inadvertently.
BLITZER: What is inadvertently?
BREUER: Let me tell you what happened.
BLITZER: Sandy Berger doesn't do things inadvertently.
BREUER: Well, wait a minute. Sandy Berger had been reviewing thousands and thousands of pages of classified documents. He did it so that he could give informed answers to the 9/11 commission. And so the very documents that have formed the basis of their report could be produced. He did that by himself because no one else could do it or would do it. So he has a table. He's working openly. There are Archives people there and there are thousands of documents. And in the course of his review it was clear to everyone he had a leather portfolio. He brought it in openly. The Archives people knew it. And anyone who has works with Sandy knows he always has that leather portfolio and there were lots of business papers that have nothing at all to do with this commission.
And perhaps, Wolf, there was too much informality by Sandy and maybe too much informality by the Archives people. But at some point when he leaves, the memorandum got caught with his business papers and he walked out. It was inadvertent. He admitted the mistake...
BLITZER: Was that document -- that sensitive classified document was in his little briefcase?
BREUER: It wasn't a briefcase. It was a leather portfolio. And to highlight it, all of the documents that he was reviewing on those three days were highly classified. This was a longer document. He had put it aside to look at it more. But it's unfair to suggest that that document was more classified or sensitive than all of the other things he saw.
BLITZER: You know that eyewitnesses, staffers at the National Archives say they saw him stuffing documents in his jacket, in his pants. And one even said he saw Sandy Berger put something in his socks.
BREUER: And you know that's categorically false and ridiculous. Wolf, I have now represented Sandy in this matter since October. Since that time I've tried to have responsible discussions with the government. And I said I didn't want it to be vetted in the press, I didn't want this to be political.
We wanted to treat this as a serious matter. Not once in all the time I've represented Sandy has that allegation been made. But suddenly today or yesterday right at the eve of the 9/11 commission report suddenly these ridiculous allegations are being made. It's false and it didn't happen.
BLITZER: Where is -- where does the criminal probe right now stand? You've been informed that your client, Samuel Berger, is under criminal investigation.
BREUER: I've been told since October that he was no more than a subject of this investigation. I was told to draw absolutely no negative inferences whatsoever from the fact that this investigation had been going on. I've been told by the Department of Justice that they couldn't be more pleased with the manner in which Sandy Berger and I have been handling this and have been cooperative. And I've been told that the Department of Justice had wanted to get this resolved.
The only thing that I had asked was that this not become a partisan affair and that people who didn't understand the facts would start making assertions. And, Wolf, that's exactly what happened this week when someone in the administration, some law enforcement person decided it was time to leak the document and treat this investigation not seriously.
BLITZER: But you understand why people are skeptical of this story given the fact that this document that's missing was very critical presumably of the Clinton administration. It's a very sensitive document and that people saw him doing suspicious things in there.
More...
No comments:
Post a Comment
Comments are moderated. There may be some delay before your comment is published. It all depends on how much time M has in the day. But please comment!